Topics for Possible Further Discussion

January 4, 2010 by HAT

The vicarage at Nuenen, Vincent van Gogh

A place for discussing religious matters

Week of January 4, 2010

When we use the word “God,” how far may we assume we are all talking about “the same thing”? That is, when we use the word “God,” does that word mean the idea we have in our heads about God, or the reality to which we want a proper use of the word to point, or to something else? How much sense does it make for us to have theological or spiritual conversations if we are not all talking about the same thing?

If what we can know is what shares “nature” with us — maybe we could say, is “in” nature, as we are — what does this mean about our capacity to know God? Does it mean God has to be “in” nature, too, to support our knowledge of God? What about God’s transcendence, then?

Class Notes, December 13

December 14, 2009 by HAT

The advent calendar at the town hall of Gengenbach


Heather missed class, so can’t comment. She offers the attached image of a unique Advent calendar as a peace offering and token of the season. Comments with summary remarks from other participants would be welcome.

Class Notes, December 6

December 7, 2009 by HAT

Now faith, hope and love abide, these three . . .

The informational meeting with congregation and session fully occupied our time. It afforded many specific illustrations of the benefits of attention to process in the conduct of life together.

Topics for Sunday, December 6?

December 5, 2009 by HAT

image of a woman in peasant attire sitting on the floor writing in a book

Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kindgom of heaven is like the master of a household who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old. Matthew 13.52

Please feel free to suggest a topic or topics for tomorrow’s class by adding a comment to this post.

Class Notes, November 29

November 30, 2009 by HAT

We had a long discussion of the topic of the book Deer Hunting with Jesus, prompted by Richard’s question of why Heather thought it was worth recommending. This led to some lengthy discussion about the state of political polarization in the US, the relationship of “the ministry of reconciliation” to that polarization, and whose responsibility it is to find, or invent, ways to work out of it.

We also talked at some length about a recent Session decision, its impact on the life of the congregation, and what our commitments to living like Christians entail in this situation.

Class Notes, November 15

November 15, 2009 by HAT
scene of the marriage at Cana

The marriage at Cana, in miniature

Heather gave the book Deer Hunting with Jesus the hard sell — “Everyone in this church needs to read this book!” — and started the ball rolling by loaning her copy to another class member. [Note that the author, Joe Bageant, has a blog also titled Deer Hunting with Jesus, which features more info on the book, and more writing by Bageant.]

Linda led us through some interaction with ch. 3 of Writing in the Sand by Thomas Moore, which John had recommended a couple of weeks ago. It’s a meditation on John 2:1-11, the wedding at Cana, also known as the story of Jesus turning water to wine. After reading the passage, we contributed our familiar, “Sunday School lesson” impressions of the story, which included “Jesus says it’s OK to drink wine, at least sometimes!” “Even though Jesus wasn’t married, he blesses marriage,” “Jesus listened to his mother,” “the point of the story is that it’s supposed to be proof Jesus is divine, because he can do miracles.” Heather makes it for an allegory of the life of the church. Dave reminded us that Father Guido Sarducci (remember him?) said it was proof of why Jesus had to be a man (“because women can’t make good wine”). Gary said it was like Advent: “love, peace, joy, hope . . . all wrapped up in one miracle.”

We were pretty intrigued by the involvement of Mary, Jesus’ mother, in the story, which some of has forgotten, or never noticed. That part of the story also seems extremely human, believable and relatable.

Thomas Moore reads the story as having to do with pleasure. He puts Jesus in the context of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, who thought the meaning of life lay in the enjoyment of life’s simple pleasures. He doesn’t just bless marriage, but blesses pleasure: men and women having a good time together, eating, drinking, dancing, celebrating, enjoying life. And it’s a story that makes Jesus parallel with the Greek god Dionysus, the “child god” who dies and comes back to life, whose followers encounter him in wine, who has something to do with the reconciliation of extreme opposites, like sensuality/spirituality, . . . [sorry, there were other examples, but I don't remember what they were!] So one of the important lessons of the story for Moore is that Jesus was not an uptight moralist, “inhibited, controlled, righteous, and fearful,” but gave the nod to earthy earthly pleasure. Jesus’ way is ecstatic, celebratory, and a way of joyful reconciliation as opposed to being torn apart by conflicts.

Whether we live and model this way of life . . . well, maybe we are getting better.

Whether or not we are, thinking about it led to some discussion of why people might go elsewhere, if we are so loose and laid back, especially if they are going through some kind of crisis or difficult time. Someone said they knew of someone who preferred to go to a larger, more anonymous church a couple of towns over under those circumstances. This led to some discussion of why . . . why might someone feel uncomfortable sharing with the church the tough times they’re going through, since theoretically that’s exactly when the church is supposed to be most helpful . . . “OK, I know people are going to be there, but I don’t want to be the person needing the help” is one possibility; “. . . and everyone else is doing OK and not having these problems” is another — i.e., I don’t want to be the only one, although “I think anyone here would think ‘this is a high-functioning person who’s going through a rough patch’ instead of some big judgment.” Then maybe “everyone needs a change sometimes” or “if you know everyone knows what’s going on, maybe you want to go somewhere where no one will talk about it, if you’re living this crisis Monday through Friday, on Sunday you want a break.”

Topics for Sunday?

November 11, 2009 by HAT

image of a woman in peasant attire sitting on the floor writing in a book

Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kindgom of heaven is like the master of a household who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old. Matthew 13.52

Please feel free to suggest topics or resources for our class on November 15 by attaching a comment to this post.

Class Notes, November 8

November 11, 2009 by HAT

Graphic of woman touching the hem of Jesus' garment

She had endured much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had and she was no better, but rather grew worse. Mark 5.26

We reviewed recent activities and positions taken with respect to developments around health care reform, and the connection of health care reform to matters of faith. We are a diverse group, with shared commitments to faithfulness, as we understand that.

Folks who have been reading E.P. Sanders’ Jesus and Judaism shared their impressions of the text. (“Dense” is one of the gentler descriptions.) This led to a discussion of how we approach the meaning of scripture, in particular accounts of Jesus’ actions and words, for us. Specifically, what are the lessons of the episode of Jesus in the temple (sometimes called “cleansing” the Temple, with its implicit assertion that the Temple was dirty), assuming we even know what that episode was. Specific lessons from our checkered pasts included: “Jesus got angry” — which means it’s OK for us to get angry; the church is not supposed to be mixed up with commerce; Jesus was against the sale of indulgences (learned as “a little Lutheran girl”). To what extent can we simply rely on “the tradition” to know the meaning of a particular episode in the story, to what extent do we need to critically assess that tradition, and how do we go about conducting such a critical assessment?

We began reflecting on the issues raised by the upcoming budget hearing and the financial options facing the congregation at this time.

Sunday’s Topics?

November 4, 2009 by HAT

Angel making notes

Taking notes

One of the possible uses for the class blog might be to generate topics for Sunday morning’s class a few days ahead of time. This would let us do some advance thinking about things, possibly even locate a relevant resource or two.

One easy way to make this happen would be for anyone with an idea for a topic for Sunday to leave a comment on this post.

Class Notes, November 1, 2009

November 1, 2009 by HAT

Baptism in the 14th century

For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away. . .

In general, this is a class where members bring into class what’s on their minds and hearts, what they’ve encountered during the past week, or what it seems we need to spend time talking about. Theoretically, the class provides its own curriculum.

Today, topics included:

    praise for one member’s reacent reading [Writing in the Sand by Thomas Moore];

    discussion about problems of accessibility that have arisen for two valued members of the congregation, and what we are doing to help resolve those;

    a long discussion about evangelism — on our minds a lot these days, especially since the congregation will soon be focusing even more intensely on Unbinding the Gospel, an evangelism study series by Martha Grace Reese. We’ll be going through Unbinding Your Heart as a congregation in a couple of months. We recognize that as a congregation we have a distinctive identity, and that what people can find here is exactly what some people need, and probably not exactly what others need. Does that mean we need to change? Or does it mean we need to reach out more intentionally to the people we can minister to most effectively?

As far as evangelism goes, there is always a fine line to walk between talking so much about marketing that we lose sight of the purposes for which we are trying to do a better job of spreading the gospel and the news about where people can learn more about it, and talking so little about bending and reaching out to people with particular kinds of needs and traits that we don’t pay any attention to whether our witness or ministry is actually reaching anyone, or who it’s actually reaching. A lot of the issues that noticing that fine line raises came up in our talk today.